Integrated Wisdom
Integrated Wisdom podcast aims to bridge the gap between spirituality and science. By exploring the lessons of neuroscience, psychology, holistic healing modalities and spiritual wisdoms, and integrating these insights, we seek to uncover the keys to deepening our connection with ourselves and others, whilst paving the way for a more deeply connected and inspired world along the way.
Integrated Wisdom
Soulful Chats with Clinical Psychologist, Alison Dougall
In this month's instalment of our popular 'Soulful Chats' segment, I am joined by a dear friend and colleague, Clinical Psychologist, Mindfulness Teacher & Coach, Alison Dougall. Alison is also an alum from my course 'The Conscious Therapist'.
In this fabulous discussion, Alison shares her journey with spirituality through the wisdoms of Buddhist Meditations and explores in beautiful detail the realisations that she experienced about the depth and breadth that spirituality have to add to life, as she moved from a solely secular mindfulness practice, to one that was more reconnected with it's spiritual roots.
Book Recommendation:
- Joy of Living, Yongey Mingyur Riponche
- Joy of Wisdom, Yongey Mingyur Riponche
https://www.amazon.com.au/Joyful-Wisdom-Yongey-Mingyur-Rinpoche/dp/0553824449/ref=pd_bxgy_d_sccl_1/358-7836707-0718941?pd_rd_w=8BtA3&content-id=amzn1.sym.b8fb0fcd-bf7a-49df-a0d3-2b4768adaa5a&pf_rd_p=b8fb0fcd-bf7a-49df-a0d3-2b4768adaa5a&pf_rd_r=DP3NN7BAS6AHA6SBAVFM&pd_rd_wg=gu9l9&pd_rd_r=bf87d4a3-7c95-4846-bbf4-64305b21dccc&pd_rd_i=0553824449&psc=1
Alison can be found at:
Website - thethrivingspace.com
Instagram - @alisondougallcoaching
I am so excited to announce that my SOLD OUT ‘The Conscious Therapist’ course will be running one last time for 2024 in early September. Register now for our waitlist to be the first to get access to this course and other insiders treats by clicking this link below:
https://www.integratedwisdom.com.au/conscioustherapistwaitlist
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Intro and Outro music: Inspiring Morning by Playsound
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
Are you a therapist yearning to ethically integrate spirituality into your practice. The conscious therapist course is coming soon. And it's designed to help you bridge the gap between evidence-based therapy and spiritual wisdom. Join our waitlist now and be the first to know when enrollment's open. As a waitlist member, you'll get exclusive early access and a special discounted rate. Don't miss this opportunity to transform your practice and deepen your impact. You can find a link to the waitlist in the show notes below. Or you can head over to my website. At intintegratedwisdom.com.au/conscioustherapistwaitlist. Welcome to the Integrated Wisdom Podcast. I am your host, Tatyana Da Silva. Join me as we discuss what it means to live an integrated life and explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater meaning, peace, and connection by integrating the wisdom of spirituality, psychology, Neuroscience, Epigenetics and Energy Psychology are hoped to empower you to create deeper and more loving connections with yourself and others, whilst also paving the way for humanity at large to be reimagined and inspired to become the very best version of itself. Hello, and welcome to the integrated wisdom podcast. Thank you so much for joining me for yet another week. I have the joy of bringing to you today, another installment of my soulful chats. And I have my dear friend and colleague and past student Alison Dougal joining me today for a conversation about her journey with spirituality Alison is a dedicated coach, clinical psychologist, and mindfulness teacher. Her innovative coaching approach has empowered hundreds of women to reconnect with themselves, discover their own unique paths, and step into the best years of their life. In her clinical psychology practice, she supports women through the challenges of menopause and perimenopause. Supporting them to feel like themselves again when she isn't coaching. Alison enjoys traveling, meditating, or savoring fine wine with good friends. She lives in the beachside locality of Scarborough in Western Australia with her husband, two cats, three chickens, and a hive of bees. Welcome Alison. It's so great to have you join me.
Alison:Thanks, Tatiana. I am really excited to be here, and it's always nice to have a conversation with you.
Tatiana:I'm so excited to have you join us today. Alison, obviously we'll be talking about some of the beautiful work that you're doing with women in midlife stages of life. I know that I'm getting to that point in my life myself. So getting, yeah, getting some guidance from you, uh, is wonderful for myself and our listeners. And I know that you've recently had a really beautiful and transformative experience going out to Nepal and meditating with, A monk that you really, respect. So we would love to hear a little bit more about that if you're happy to share.
Alison:yeah, sure. I'd love to share. And I think you know, it's just popped into my mind as you're speaking. And I think it's really fabulous, for women that are midlife or before midlife really kind of, I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you say, because being prepared for this. life, for me, I had my head in the sand. I didn't really want to acknowledge that it was coming. And the idea of kind of being open to that, I think is really wise and fabulous. And, and look, the exciting thing is that it is a real unrecognized developmental stage in our psychology. And I think that really ties in with, kind of my story in the sense that, you know, I'm 55, turning 55, and going to Kathmandu to meditate is, you know, it's just really exciting the opportunities that are available at this time. if we uh, in the mode of taking advantage of the opportunities that are important to us. So, yeah, I have been teaching and practicing mindfulness for a lot of years, a few decades at a secular form of mindfulness. And there's, I guess there's a whole lot of, initially I was resistant to, like, I really just felt I needed to stay in my own, it's a secular for evidence based form of mindfulness. And I felt like I really needed to stay in my zone. Stick to that science based evidence based psychology kind of model. And over time, I, I guess I was exposed to little bits of Buddhism and really interested in what it has to say, clearly there's a whole lot of wisdom there. And then it came to the point where I went, I kind of felt obliged to what, you know, personally interested, but also obliged to know that these are practices that have been removed. from their spiritual roots. And for me to be so involved in teaching it to become more familiar with what those roots are. And as a part of that kind of exploring, becoming exposed to more Buddhist authors and speakers. And as you say, the particular monk that really, I have really gravitated towards Yom Yerushalay. And I, partly it's because he has this incredible skill at making I guess ancient Tibetan concepts available in a Western science kind of way. He's translated it for me.
Tatiana:Yes.
Alison:And also he has a really funny sense of humor. He's really relatable. He's down to earth. And so that's what has gravitated me towards his work. I read his books and I kind of, as part of my midlife exploration, went through my own process of what I'd like the future, my future to look like. And as a part of that process, I saw myself in I didn't know which country it was going to be, but I saw myself in one of his books. monestaries that he teaches at internationally, having teachings from him. And I kind of went, oh my goodness, can I do that? Is that a thing? And they went, oh, of course I can. Why not? So that's when I started looking for his you know, what would be available online. And there were there were. Messages that he wasn't going to be teaching for a while internationally. And then there was a treat coming up in Kathmandu that I kept my eye open for the opening the opening of the sales of the of the seats. And as soon as it was open, I just got my ticket and. Yeah, and then was over there some months later, but you're really interesting going from someone that was feeling like I really needed to stay in my secular mindfulness camp to going to this Tibetan Buddhist retreat where they have a lot of symbolism and, you know, images that might seem unusual to our Western minds. And so yeah, I guess from one extreme to the other, it's really quite a transition over a lot of years for me.
Tatiana:Yeah, fantastic. And I guess, you know, you and I have this in common this deep desire to integrate the science with the spiritual, right. And I can see how the, this monk that you follow embodies that so clearly. And it's beautiful to hear that it's been, you know, Uh, I guess incorporated or pursued in lots of different places that there's this belief or acknowledgement that the two things really should and can co exist
Alison:Look, and it's really interesting, isn't it? Because when I think there was a fear in me that I don't really know, like something that I hadn't examined, but when I read his work, I go, Oh my goodness, like nothing that he says conflicts with what I know about. You know, the science, research, evidence of psychology. There is no conflict. It's just that these people were onto it 2, 600 years, 2, 500 years before Westerners were that they, and here we are reinventing psychology. Yeah.
Tatiana:in so many ways. Right. And so is that what's first sparked your interest in spirituality, your, I guess your relationship with meditation?
Alison:Largely, I think, yes, and it feels like, I guess it did feel like there was a conflict that I didn't really, and I remember having this conversation with you that I didn't understand really what spirituality was, but meditation, mindfulness is, can be a spiritual practice. And that was what was kind of taken out in the programs that I was teaching to make it a health practice. But I didn't really understand what was the difference where the line was between what would be a spiritual practice and what would be a secular practice because there's so much overlap between the two. And I guess for me as a psychologist, I felt very safe that I was teaching an evidence based program of mindfulness. So it was very convenient for me that didn't cause a conflict for me.
Tatiana:Yeah, fair enough. And I know that I think for many of us, the idea that we're still able to work within the confines of evidence base is extremely important, right? We take our scientific hats very seriously, but it's wonderful that, yeah, that there is modalities that start to weave those two things together and allow us To, to guide people through spiritual practices in a way that's safe and ethical.
Alison:And I think you're right. And you know, it's interesting with mindfulness that, you know, the last decades, there has been a whole lot of research into it. It just, you know, makes it blows my mind to think, you know, what are all the modalities that don't have research into it yet? You know, 50 years ago, there wasn't the same research into mindfulness and it wouldn't have been given the time of day. Now the research has been done, then, you know, like I say, I could feel, you know, 20 years ago, I could feel safe teaching an evidence based form of mindfulness. But then it just, I just go, well, you know, What else is there that hasn't had the opportunity to have the evidence base yet?
Tatiana:Absolutely. I have this saying, and I say it all the time, I'm sounding like a broken record now, but I believe there's no such thing as supernatural forces, right? Like there are only forces that science hasn't yet explained because we don't yet have the tools and we haven't yet asked the right questions, but it's all a matter of time. So you're right. Like there'll be more and more modalities, I think, are starting to get evidence of starting to have people realize maybe we should start gathering evidence on these, like, you know, emotion freedom technique, for example, the tapping that's now developed a clinical protocol, right? Only what, 10, 15 years ago, it was considered complete woo.
Alison:Absolutely. And you know, and that is the modality that I use in my practice. And I had exactly that same reaction. Oh, it's weird. I'm not looking at that. And then I had an experience of being on the receiving end of it. That's amazing. But still, you know, took me a decade to get on board with it.
Tatiana:Yeah.
Alison:but I think, so it's like, I've been kind of really, you know, In the past, I've been really in that end of the spectrum. That's been kind of closed down to that. And so I think in terms of the bridges that has helped me get to where I am today and to be, you know, have the benefit of the fullness of all of this. You know, there's been a real mindfulness journey. There was, you know, kind of finding this monk, there was finding another program out of the U S that was a meditation. And. So it's been a whole journey and I think one of those aspects as well was really nice timing was doing your program as well, your integrated wisdom program, because, you know, I was kind of, I had my closed mind and I was open to the experience for everyone else. But you know, you know, with clients for these amazing spiritual experiences and absolutely happy to work with that. I've heard people speak of amazing spiritual experience and I absolutely respect that, but that hadn't been my experience. So, really fabulous to do your program and have that open that at those possibilities. beyond the mindfulness and meditation concepts and world to go, well, I'm fine here in my little mindfulness world because it does have an evidence base and it's become more acceptable. And, you know, then I get to go into the spiritual world. But. Yes, outside of that was something that was really kind of felt really inaccessible to me. And now I feel as though the door is open. I've got so much more access, even beyond mindfulness and meditation, which is really fabulous as well, even In the Tibetan Buddhist world, because there are some things that are really a challenge for our Western mind and timing wise to have done your program and then to have gone to Nepal to have these things that really probably would have challenged me more if I hadn't done your program. That was just really nice timing. It's like the universe kind of lined up to give me that program this year before I went to Kathmandu.
Tatiana:that makes my heart so happy to hear. Thank you for that. But I do think it's interesting, isn't it? How the two things did coincide.
Alison:Yes, you're really nice. And, you know, I still would have, you know, I was thinking about that this morning, I still would have, I don't have any doubt that I would have got to Kathmandu, but the experience that I had to be so much more open to things that would seem bizarre to my previous. Previous versions of myself
Tatiana:Yeah.
Alison:to just have, or already kind of practice stepping into things and being open to things for myself, as I said, I was open for other people, but being open to things for myself yeah, that was just really nice timing.
Tatiana:Oh, how fabulous. So this leads nicely into speaking to the benefits that you have found in incorporating spirituality into your life. Maybe the benefits have been for you on that personal
Alison:Yeah. And I,
Tatiana:personal first.
Alison:I guess that, I guess there's two elements of that. There's, I guess there's. there's the Buddhism and then there's the larger spirituality. So I think from a Buddhist perspective, just having all of that wisdom and opportunity, It's, you know, personal growth is one of my highest values, and to just feel now like I've got an infinite amount of sources of personal growth to engage with Buddhist practices ahead of me I've got a community to do that with. I've got You know, 2600 years of wisdom to immerse myself in, and you know, that just feels really exciting and fulfilling. And, you know, I know where I'm headed with that and not, you know, precisely, but you know, it's, they're available. It's just what I want to dip my toes into. It, you know, it makes me a better person. It makes life more. Oh, there's not even a word that is the right word for it. It just, it fuller. I know that doesn't really sum it up, but it does.
Tatiana:Oh, that's beautiful
Alison:Yeah it makes life fuller and, you know, I think yeah. And the practices that I'm doing, it's like the ultimate positive psychology. Practice. If I just put my psychologist hat on, it's like the ultimate positive psychology program that was written, again, written 2, 600 years ago. These people really knew what they were doing. So, there's that side of it. It just feels so good on all aspects of I feel like I'm burbling now, but you know, physically mentally. Spiritually, it just feels really rich and I think also coming back to, I guess what I learned in your program is that openness, you know, going beyond, so for me, spirituality is very much about my Buddhist practice, but. You know, it's really helped me be aware beyond that, like it's not, that's where my focus is, but I'm aware that there's so much more beyond that as well. And it makes the world a bigger place, more colourful. It makes it as though it's got five dimensions instead of three. you know, maybe, if it was not that it was two dimensional before, but you know, just in terms of, demonstrating the contrast. Yeah.
Tatiana:to hear. So do you feel like it's helped or enhanced your own work as a psychologist and as a coach could be able to, I guess, to have access to all of that. Could
Alison:Yeah, definitely. I think as a coach, I w I've been teaching mindfulness anyway, so absolutely it has, it's brought a whole dimension to mindfulness for me and. you know, to bring to my teaching. It's brought those extra dimensions to it. So I think, and a lot of it doesn't have words to it, but I guess the thing that does have words is just to give an example is that, so, mindfulness based cognitive therapy that I've been teaching or mindfulness based stress reduction is It has so much in common with, you know, what might be a a practice set up practices that I would do. Kind of in a more Buddhist sense, but it's, it doesn't, like I said, they took the spirituality out of it. And I think they, did wonderful things when they did that because it's made mindfulness accessible to so many more people and it's improved people's health. I've seen it do amazing things for people's mental health. It's fabulous. It's helped my mental health. But it doesn't have aspects of necessarily of interdependence or impermanence or kind of cause and effect. It is very much. brings us into our inner world, but it doesn't. And it does perhaps look at how we relate to the outside world. But I think there are practices that help us integrate more into the world, into the bigger picture of the world.
Tatiana:Yeah. Beautiful. Did you have any fears? in incorporating some of this, I guess, the spiritual elements into the work that you do. I know that, like, as we've spoken about this a lot, for a lot of psychologists, I think particularly in Australia, we have a lot of fears, right, about incorporating these different elements into the work that we do. And I think that's starting to change, but it's still something that kind of looms for a lot of people. And I'm just curious to know whether you, you had any fears in trying to open that door.
Alison:That's a really good question. I guess the answer must be yes, because I developed a separate coaching practice to my psychology practice and I don't, so in my psychology practice, I will work with the evidence based style of mindfulness and in my coaching practice, I've, feel like I've got more there's more possibility for what I can introduce and share with people.
Tatiana:Yeah, beautiful. So what value do you personally see for psychologists, therapists, coaches in particular, in embracing their spiritual selves or at least being more curious about spirituality?
Alison:Yeah, look, that's a really good question because I think from a, you know, when I, if I think of just my clinical practice, then, I think there's so much opportunity. I know for me, I've, worked with people that have spiritual experiences that have been really beneficial for their mental health and it can work with those as a strength. But I think, but I realized that people only, I only hear about those if people feel comfortable to share them. And I re I realized when I did your program that I'm missing a whole lot of potential because, you know, I think about this wonderful client that I worked with who had I don't know if I've got the right word, but she had these guides that she saw and she heard and they were, they guided her so beautifully in such helpful directions. And we were able to work with that and get her so much benefit in such a short space of time. And the wonderful, and so there was such a help in her therapy work, but I was fortunate that she felt comfortable to share that with me up front. And a lot of people don't want to share that kind of experience with the clinical psychologist for fear of what judgments or what repercussions are going to happen. So I was really fortunate that she was comfortable to share that with me. And it made me realize the opportunities I may have missed by not explicitly asking people about spirituality. And so I, after I did your program, I put into my intake form, just an open question to, and I don't have a lot in my intake process cause I want people to be able to share with me once they've met me. Like I realized that you don't want to give a whole lot of personal information. Well, I, my thoughts are, you know, people might not want to give a whole lot of personal information before they've even met someone or have a relationship with them. But just to open that possibility to say, Is there any spiritual, you know, do you have spiritual beliefs or practices that you'd like to share with Alison so that people at least not, even if they still don't feel comfortable to write something in that form, but they've got the opportunity to write it or they've at least know there's an openness to that. And and so they kind of know that it's on the table and it's on the table. And what really shocked me about that is, you know, my I've got a background as a nurse as well as a registered nurse. And You know, we would routinely ask people about spirituality and a lot of times people would talk about religion and not necessarily about spirituality, but it was there on all of the forms for all of the years that I was nursing when we were doing intakes with patients. And I went, why is psychology so different? Why wouldn't we be including this for people?
Tatiana:Absolutely. That is the like million dollar question, isn't it? It's such a core aspect of people's sense of self. Even if they don't consider themselves spiritual, there's still elements that in which they would engage in the world that have a spiritual undertone, right? Yeah.
Alison:Absolutely. And I'm just, and my mind's kind of just caught on the fact that just as we're speaking, that I had this thing that, you know, I remember having this conversation with you at the beginning of your program. And I asked one of my meditation teachers earlier, I was like, I don't, you know, understand what the difference is between personal growth and spiritual growth. And I, and it's like, I had to know, like I, I'd sections. I've divided them up so much that they were separate things and they needed to be separate things. And you know, and that's and clearly when I was a nurse, working as a nurse, like that wasn't even, there weren't even little boxes for that. And now that I'm a psychologist, there, there are little boxes for that. And they've gotta be kept really separate because if the two meet that, you know, there, there's danger in that. You'll be perceived to be stepping outside of your remit as a psychologist.
Tatiana:yeah, and it's turning out to be such a myth, right? And like you said, like, uh, a harmful myth in some ways, because it's limiting our ability to one show up authentically for our clients, but also for our clients to show up authentically to the room if they feel like they have to suppress these aspects of themselves.
Alison:Absolutely. Absolutely.
Tatiana:So I guess. If you had to pick one transformative aspect of embracing spirituality more fully, both on a personal and a professional level, what aspect would that be for you personally?
Alison:Oh, I can only pick one.
Tatiana:No, it can be more than one.
Alison:Yeah, look, I think it would be I'm not 100 percent sure I'm answering your question right, but I think one aspect is, just broadening up the world, like I was saying before, feeling like the world kind of has gone from two dimensions to, multicolored to nine dimensions. I think I said five before, but I'm saying nine now. It's just made the world a it's made life, it's brought more dimensions to life. It's made the world a bigger, more colorful place.
Tatiana:Oh, beautiful. What do you feel having now accessed this additional spiritual element to yourself, to your perspective of life? What do you feel that has now enabled you to do that you maybe weren't being We're able to do before
Alison:it's a bit odd to say, but it gives me confidence in being able to continue to really grow as a person and to know, to feel supported, to have a community, to know where to find that, to know that it's a challenge. And I guess, you know, maybe this is the thing is that life is challenging enough. It always has its ups and downs. It has its challenges and maybe it is. support with navigating those challenges, the ability to grow the strength and resilience in an ongoing way. And I think maybe, you know, I've been practicing secular mindfulness for a long time, but feeling having a heap of benefit from it but feeling, and I don't think I acknowledge it at the time, but feeling like I kinda was coming towards some barrier with it. And you don't really come to a barrier cause you can always continue with it. But it's like, it just opened up my world to, To, and I'm coming back to dimensions now because it you know, it's just bought so many resources. It's made life richer in terms of my engagement with all of those up and downs in life with making it, you know, I already knew before that, you know, whenever we get a challenge that's an opportunity for growth. At some point, it's always. difficult at the time and now I just feel like there, I've got so many more tools in my kit for dealing with that. And I don't, and I think the thing for me about being midlife is that I really want to See, you know, at some point in the past, I had visions that it was, I didn't know what the future held. And so that my default future was kind of, oh, it was downhill from here. You know, your body gets challenged, doesn't perform like it used to, there are aches and pains. And I think the way society portrays midlife is that It's kind of it's downhill. And I, at one point I stopped and challenged that and said, look, I want to know what the potential is for this stage of life. And now physically, maybe I can't do what I could do 10, 20 years ago, but how much can I do? And I think, this really opens up spiritually and personally this huge amount of this infinite amount of growth and we know that, I mean not that I'm ever going to become a monk or anything, but we know the benefits that they have in terms of their emotional, mental, physical benefits. And I and it's, it gives me another aspect to go, well, what is the potential in that direction? So I guess in coming around to your question, which I didn't have an answer for, is that it gives me direction, it gives me hope, it gives me meaning, it gives me connection to the community that I've got. Through the retreat that I've been through, but, going back 2, 600 years to the people that have brought this wisdom through all of those centuries.
Tatiana:Yes. And I imagine that I guess as we get older as well, like we're moving through life, having access to this, that confidence, that support that knowing that this, that all of this is available to you, it might help, I guess, embrace. The fact that our time is finite. I don't know. Do you find that's the case for you?
Alison:Yeah. Well, and look, I think that's part of the wisdom of the book. that I've been banging on about is that, you know, impermanence is a big part of Buddhist practice. And, sometimes when I, I get smaller challenges, I go, Oh my goodness, how great, because this is really good mindfulness practice. And, the goal would be at some point, ultimately that, those challenges of aging, uh, probably almost the ultimate challenge. And. if I could get to the point where I go, Oh, how exciting about each challenge, because it's a form of growth, then I think and even if I, that's probably, Olympic kind of size, Olympic athlete size, equivalent of meditation. But even if I don't ever make it to that point, I'm going to be in a better position that I would have been without my mindfulness practice. So it's going to be helpful in some way, shape or form. So yeah That's exciting.
Tatiana:Oh, how beautiful. And I guess I have a tradition here where every guest that I have, I ask them to recommend a book to our listeners on spirituality or spiritual concept of sorts that they can use to begin their journey with if they're curious to explore these concepts a little bit more deeply. Do you have a book that you would recommend to people?
Alison:I do. I think the monk that I was talking about earlier, his early books, uh, they blew my mind as a neuroscience geek, as a psychology geek, as a mindfulness geek. And as someone who, and the thing is, I'd kind of tried to, even when I was in my thirties, I'd kind of gone to a Buddhist to the Buddhist center in WA to try to learn something about meditation and it just wasn't accessible for me. So I had this inclination for a lot of years, but not really found the right bridges. And So, yeah. So anything of the early books by Yongyi Mingyur Rinpoche and particularly there's one called The Joy of Living.
Tatiana:The
Alison:And I think there's another one. Yeah. I think it's another one called Joyful Wisdom. Either of those are really I found it really accessible and you can see his humor and they're the things for me that really went, actually, there is no conflict between science and Buddhism. And they're saying the same things.
Tatiana:Oh, how fabulous. I'll add a link to both those books in the show notes for those who are interested in having a look again. It's going on my reading list, which just grows exponentially every day. But thank you so much, Alison, for joining me for this chat. It's been such a joy to have you and to be able to talk to you about your own wisdom guiding, you know, in navigating. This period of life, but also your journey through this process of connecting with your spiritual essence. Is there any where the people can find you, if they want to work with you or know a little bit more about what you've got going on?
Alison:Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. And like, and I haven't had that kind of conversation with anyone since I've been like, I've spoken about it with people, but that's, you've really got me thinking about, you know, what I've taken away and the tangibles of it. So thank you. So I have, uh, the, it's all very quiet for me at the moment because I'm focusing on my practice, but the thriving space. com is a website for my coaching. And I am, again, it's very quiet, but on socials, Alison Dougal coaching.
Tatiana:Fantastic. I'll add a link to all of those on the show notes as well. So thank you so much again for joining me. do you have any final thoughts before we wrap up?
Alison:No, just to say, yeah, thank you again. It's been a really fabulous conversation. I hope it's helpful for you and anyone listening because it really got me reflecting on, you know, what I have taken away. So yeah, I really appreciate that. So thank you. Absolutely.
Tatiana:Oh, my pleasure. And yeah, if once it starts to come in a little bit more clearly, because sometimes we need to just sit with these things and let it percolate before we start recognizing what it is that's there or more things come to the surface. We'd love to hear, you know, let me know what comes up if you connect with any more. But thank you so much again, Alison. No, thank you so much again for joining us and thank you all for listening. I hope you all have a lovely week and we'll speak next time.