Integrated Wisdom

Soulful Chats with Clinical Psychologist, Veronica Beeson

• Tatiana Da Silva • Episode 56

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In this month's instalment of 'Soulful Chats' I am joined by my colleague, Clinical Psychologist, Veronica Beeson.

Join us as Veronica discusses her journey with spirituality, including some personal experiences with Spirit, the transformative power of yoga as a spiritual practice and the value of showing up authentically in our therapeutic practices.

Veronica can be reached at:  deverneuilpsychology.com

Veronica's Recommendation:

Yoga with Adriene Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/yogawithadriene

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Intro and Outro music: Inspiring Morning by Playsound

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.

 

 

Tatiana:

Welcome to the Integrated Wisdom Podcast. I am your host, Tatyana Da Silva. Join me as we discuss what it means to live an integrated life and explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater meaning, peace, and connection by integrating the wisdom of spirituality, psychology, Neuroscience, Epigenetics and Energy Psychology are hoped to empower you to create deeper and more loving connections with yourself and others, whilst also paving the way for humanity at large to be reimagined and inspired to become the very best version of itself. Hello, and welcome to the Integrated Wisdom Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me for yet another week. Today I have the very popular monthly. Installments of soulful chats. And I'm very excited to share with you a colleague of mine, Veronica Beeson, who's a clinical psychologist. She's been working in private practice and is very passionate about creating a nurturing space for her clients so that they can embrace their authenticity and grow in all aspects of their lives. As a naturally curious person, she has always been drawn towards psychology and spirituality in learning more and learning more about the human experience. Veronica has been working with clients as a psychologist since 2015, but her interest in spirituality predates this by decades. Some of her earliest memories are of spiritual experiences. Through her work, Veronica hopes to de pathologize people's experiences of spirituality in a way that is ethical and maintains a solid grounding in science and evidence based practice. So I'm very excited to have this chat. Thank you so much for joining me, Veronica. Welcome.

Veronica:

too.

Tatiana:

Yeah. And I should probably point out to our listeners as well that We met each other through my course, you joined the first of my course, and you've been a member of my membership that's been going on since then. And so we've been having lots of conversations about spirituality, your spiritual journey. And I thought it would be really, um, a wonderful opportunity to have the listeners of this podcast, get some insights into some of the experiences that you've had that have been really,

Veronica:

was an excellent course. Um, I got lots and lots of stuff out of it and that's why I've joined the peer supervision and that's been really interesting and I've gotten lots out of that as well. So yeah. So I'm sure a lot of the things that we talk about is probably not going to be new to you, but yeah. And I'm very excited about sharing some of it.

Tatiana:

No, thank you. And I, I think this, this segment is actually quite popular with listeners because it is highlighting, individual psychologists, our own personal experience with spirituality and how they've made peace with integrating those two sides of themselves. And I know from our chats that you have so many beautiful insights and experiences to

Veronica:

Yeah,

Tatiana:

So why don't we start with that? Maybe sharing with our listeners a little bit about what first sparked your interest in spirituality.

Veronica:

I feel like it's been with me my whole life, like right from when I was little, um, uh, so I've, I've told you about this memory, but one of the memories that really stand out for me was when I was quite young, um, I'm not sure exactly, but maybe four or five years old. Like somewhere between five to seven, maybe, um, around that age, I know the house that it happened in. So I know it was around that time. Um, yeah, where I woke up in the middle of the night and there was this beautiful older lady, um, standing by my bed. Um, and she was, it was like she was glowing and she just gave me this really beautiful, warm feeling. Um, yeah. And she looked like my gran. So that was the first thing I was like, my gran's here. Um, And I said, Hello, Gran. And she, she smiled at me, and she just disappeared. And she left me with this really really warm feeling of safety. Um, I think, like, the whole memory is really vivid for me, but I think the feeling of warmth I have associated with that memory is the thing that stands out the most. And it really, really It, um, took me a little while to put the pieces of the puzzle together. I think it was years later where I was like looking at pictures and I realized it wasn't my gran, it was my gran's mom. Um, so my mom's. grandmother on my mother's side, um, great grandmother Jean, who I didn't really know because she lived interstate. And I was able to confirm with my mum that she did actually pass around that time. So that was kind of like interesting, validating confirmation for me around that experience. But yeah, like I think that's the thing that stands out.

Tatiana:

What a beautiful introduction to that concept that there's a spiritual element to life,

Veronica:

So I think that that's always shaped my, um, yeah, my ideas around spirituality and these ideas of life after death and this, this idea that life goes on.

Tatiana:

Yeah, fantastic. So when you decided to start exploring the spiritual concepts a little bit more deeply, what were some of the first, I guess, concepts that you, you chose to begin that journey

Veronica:

Um, so, uh, I was raised in a Christian household, so we did go to, go to church, uh, so a lot of my earlier spiritual concepts was around Christianity and the church, but it was very interesting because my, my parents. Both of the relationships with their spirituality and their religion were shifting as they were raising us. So from around 10, I think they were starting to, like, their ideas were starting to move a little bit more away from organised religion. And they gave us a choice, like, when I was 10 they said, Do you want to keep going to church? And I was like, No, I want my Sunday sleep ins back. Um. Yeah, so I think, um, I still broadly identified as Christian, um, until a little bit later where I've moved a little bit away from organized religion and have a little bit more of a, I think a broader, like, I guess, a spiritual identity. Um, like when I was 18, that was a real big, big time for me, like, in terms of, like, shifting. Um, I was, yeah, I, I, I was struggling a bit. I was, uh, I had some depression and anxiety and I, I think I was searching and feeling quite lost at the time. Um, and I probably could have benefited from, like, from some psychologies from counseling, but it didn't, um, really fit for me in terms of where I wanted to go exploring. So I found a couple of groups. One was a like spiritual meditation women's group, and the other one was a. Yoga. And, um, like both of them were actually really lovely and like really safe spaces from it for me and they were really able to hold me, um, in developing like a bit of a, like a bit of a shift around my ideas around spirituality. Like I decided, I started to, um, develop a really regular yoga practice and meditation practice. And through that, um, Like I really kind of shifted away from organized religion and more into this broader sense of Yeah, I don't know this broader connection with the universe. I guess like is the best way to describe it Yeah, and I had some really beautiful, vivid meditation experiences, um, through that. And, um, it was, it was incredibly helpful for me and sort of in shifting and transforming, like, and, um, growing, uh, you know, like at a time when I was feeling quite stuck, uh, and was like struggling a little bit with my mental health. And it really kind of helped push me through that.

Tatiana:

Yeah, how beautiful. And it's so interesting. Uh, I think you'll recall some of the research that we've been, we've spoken about throughout this year that particularly Dr. Lisa Miller, she's been demonstrating, right? Like it's not uncommon for young adults around that 18, 19, um, age to have a bout of depression or anxiety. And it's usually, uh, a deeper calling or, uh, an aching for a spiritual connection. Right. And so it's quite fascinating that that's been your experience

Veronica:

absolutely. Like, I just remember that so much and, um, like, still holding a few of these, like, these traditional religious beliefs that I was growing up in, but sort of wrestling. with them quite a bit. And it was so, it was, it was terrifying. It felt like I was like losing a little bit of like my footing or my grounding, I guess, um, to be able to step away from that and, and think, you know what, it's okay that there's, there's parts of this that no longer fit for me. Um, that, you know, it's okay for me to forge my own path and develop ideas, um, around my spirituality that like, you know, that are deeply personal and, uh, mine, you know, don't belong to anybody else.

Tatiana:

And so for your perspective and your own personal experience, what have you found to be the benefits of incorporating, I guess, that spiritual lens or, uh, spiritual perspective into your life on, on that

Veronica:

Um, oh, there's, there's so, there's so much, um, my meditation and my yoga practice is incredibly important for me. And for me getting on my mat, it's not, it's not just about doing the stretches or the asanas or the poses. It's, um, really. It really is about, um, my connection to self and connection to something bigger. So it really is a spiritual experience for me every time I get on my mat and do my yoga. Um, we always grow when we embark on a spiritual path, particularly if we're willing to be flexible and open in what comes. Um, like if, if I am struggling with anything, I'll meditate on it. And, you know, I really want, when I go into a meditation, I really want to be flexible and open and leave my judgments, expectations at the door. And, um, you know, just be really open to what pops in for me. And, Often the things that pop in for me are just new insights, just a different way of looking at the situation. Um, you know, sometimes it's hard truths. Sometimes it's, you know, things that I need to look at, like in terms of myself and my habits and, um, stuff that needs to shift and change. Uh, but it's always like, it always feels like it's coming from a really loving and a really nurturing place. Uh, yeah, and it's, it's just that opportunity to, to grow and learn about myself and, um, be, be open to tapping into, you know, for me, it is about like tapping into something deeper within the universe, but it's also about tapping into different parts of self that I wouldn't normally have access to. And that's always going to be beneficial for growth.

Tatiana:

Yeah. 100%. I say this all the time that I think the spiritual path that we're all on is one is one of evolution. It's one of growth, right? Personal growth. And so we were here to grow in lots of different ways, emotionally, psychologically, but also spiritually. And you're right. Like all these different facets are like. They help us deepen that understanding and just, and shake off the stuff that doesn't fit as we go through the path doesn't, isn't it?

Veronica:

absolutely.

Tatiana:

Um, so have you found that having this, I guess, perspective, the spiritual perspective has enhanced your work as a psychologist in any way?

Veronica:

like I, I do, I mean, I don't think it's necessary, but like, I do think it has helped me personally to be more nonjudgmental and more curious and more open, um, and hopefully create a space where my clients can just, show up and, um, you know, it's a safe space for my clients to share their beliefs and their ideas about the world, which is, you know, everyone's spiritual journey. Like if they are on that path, it's so deeply personal and so deeply important to people. Um, and I really, think that it's, it's really important in the work that we're doing when we're creating this sacred space for clients, that they, they feel safe to share all parts of themselves and all parts of their journey with religion and I re or spirituality. And I really do try and, you know, like see the common threads in what people are experiences. experiencing, um, yeah, without having any judgments about what, um, lens that they are applying to it because there's so many common threads like through, through different religions and through people's spiritual paths that it doesn't actually always matter what modality that they're drawn to. Um, so I think having my own spiritual journey has helped me, yeah, just be open to meet people where they're at, um, in the therapy room. Yeah.

Tatiana:

Yeah, fantastic. Um, we've, I mean, I know you and I have spoken about this offline and it's something that I speak to. I would. Other psychologists that have this spiritual leaning as well about, um, but in our profession, particularly in Australia, there's a lot of fear of, of embracing our spiritual side, right? Like there's, uh, almost this, it feels like a taboo topic. Like we have to hide in our little closets. Um, and obviously you're at a point where you, you've, you've made a, you've made a Um, a lot of work to reconcile those two aspects of yourself. Was there a period where you felt that fear of like being a

Veronica:

Absolutely.

Tatiana:

element?

Veronica:

Um, and it's still a work in progress. So, like, I remember being at university and, um, really loving, like, I love learning and I really loved the subjects that I was learning and I loved learning about the science of it all and, um, you know, that, that was, It's something that like I really enjoyed and then I would go and I don't know, go to like full moon drumming nights, like, you know, and like experience a different part of myself on weekends. And it really did feel like, um, yeah, like there was two different parts of myself and two different worlds that would never actually meet. there was absolutely a fear there that, um, you know, if people knew that I was a spiritual person, that there'd be some sort of judgment about me not being able to sit with science and sit with evidence based practice, which is absolutely not the case at all. Um, but I think that is the reason why I've like, For the longest time, kept those parts of myself quite separate.

Tatiana:

Yes. So what did you do or how did you overcome that fear?

Veronica:

One of the values that I really, really want to embody in my practice is authenticity. Um, you know, and we don't, we don't share everything about ourselves in our sessions, but we, it is really important that like, if we're going to embody a value, that's important to us that we're embodying it in all aspects of our life. Um, and like, Reflecting on who I want to be as a psychologist and wanting to be an authentic person is one of the things that has pushed me to talk about my spirituality a little bit more because it's such an important part of who I am. So, you know, um, it's not something that I want to keep compartmentalizing and leaving at the door.

Tatiana:

Mm. Yeah. 100%. Uh, so I mean, I guess I'm assuming from your answer that you obviously see value in us as psychologists and therapists embracing this spiritual side of ourselves, but aside from the authenticity and being able to show up more fully, um, as ourselves, what else, what other values do you think being able to embrace that in our work or at the very least being able to tap into that curiosity for those. Who are listening in that maybe further back in this journey, right? Like that still, they're curious, but don't maybe know where to start or are still scared to start exploring that part of themselves. What value would you say, um, pursuing

Veronica:

just, you just always going to learn about yourself. I've had experience with organized religion, um, and not all of them have been positive. And I know a lot of people have had experiences with organized religion, which, you know, some people it's been, you know, really fits for them and it's great. But when you have like a negative experience of, um, maybe spirituality or religion or religious trauma, um, it can really, you know, create a barrier. But what I want to People to know is, you know, you can go on a spiritual journey. That's yours and belongs to you. And it doesn't matter what it looks like anybody else. Um, you know, that, if you're curious about this, be curious, explore, read up, meditate, you know, do engage in mindfulness, go in nature. It doesn't have to, you don't have to put labels on what you're, you know, what you're experiencing. Um, but just. You know, just, just create something in your life that, you know, that is around, um, having some sort of communion with self. And, you know, you don't have to get bogged down on what that looks like and what, what labels, you know, are attached to that.

Tatiana:

Yeah. 100%. Um, if you had to pick one transformative aspect of embracing spirituality more fully, both on a personal and a professional level, what aspect would you say that would be for you? Yes.

Veronica:

so, I think the first one that comes to mind is always, like, developing that compassion for self and others. Um, but apart from that, um, there was a quote. He's actually a yoga instructor where this quote came from. And it's kind of always stuck with me, um, in embodying like why, why spirituality is just so important. Um, and I'm probably not going to get the quote a hundred percent right, but that's okay. It was something along the lines of, um, we often associate progress with action when there's so much to be gained from stillness. And the reason why that stands out so much is like we're in, we live in such a busy world where, um, there's lots of value attached to being busy and there's lots of value attached to, you know, the doing and the producing. But I know, um, You know, some of my, like my growth, um, my most beautiful transformative experiences, the, the things that have like so many of the things that have been really life enhancing for me has been in the stillness, has been in a meditation. Um, you know, and other people are not going to see it. They're not going to know, um, what that looks like. Uh, but like. You know, yes, like it's, it's important that we produce here, but it needs to be balanced. And, um, a lot of the work, a lot of the growth that you're going to experience in your life here, it is going to be around the going. The going inwards and the looking inwards and the making space away from the busyness of life to do that.

Tatiana:

100%. And I, like, I believe as well that the reason so many people are struggling with that, that sense of disconnection, that sense of existential angst is because of that, like, there's many reasons for it, but I think that's definitely one of them, right? Like we're so conditioned to just being busy and not tuning into ourselves, not allowing that connection. Guidance to come in because our is so externalized, um, and we're all suffering for it. So, yeah, I think that's a beautiful

Veronica:

Yeah. I think, yeah, it's a little bit of that internalized capitalism, like, you know, that we, our value is in the doing, but, you know, our worth actually doesn't change whether we're doing or not. Our worth is just our worth. We just are, and we can sit in the being, and we should be sitting in the being a lot more.

Tatiana:

We might even find that our productivity or our output is so much better, right? If when it's coming from that connected and aligned place. Um, yeah. Uh, and so I guess on a final note, uh, this conversation has been so, so lovely. Uh, but I have this, this question. I guess a ritual tradition with my guests where I get them to share with the audience a recommendation for a spiritual book that was transformative for you in your journey to aid those that are curious about exploring these topics more deeply and where they might want to start. So would you, do you have any books that you might want to

Veronica:

look, and I was dreading this question because, um, there have been books, uh, that I really loved and were really important to me at the time. And then I kind of revisited and there's, there were aspects of them that just no longer fit, um, for me. So instead of recommending a book, I'm going to recommend a person. Um, Her name's Adrienne Mishler and she's actually a yoga, um, instructor and she puts out a lot of free yoga material on YouTube. So she's free, she's easily accessible and, um, there's a lot of things that, um, you know, that, that, that she creates accessibility around ability as well. Uh, but I just, she just embodies. love, compassion, and self nurturing. she's really, really special. Um, there's a couple of things that she says that really kind of stand out for me. One is, Move like you love yourself. Um, so I really, really love this because I know developing self compassion is something that so many of us really struggle with. It's, it's, it's hard to, to shift, um, the way we feel about ourselves. But, but I love, I love the words move, move like you love yourself because it gives you a place to start, like you don't have to already be there to start embodying that, like, you know, what would your life look like if you moved through it, like you loved yourself, you know, and what does that look like even in the smaller moments when you're doing the dishes or when you're making yourself a cup of tea, like, what does moving like you love yourself look like, And then the other thing she really, um, she says a lot is intention over shape. And obviously she's saying that in terms of your yoga practice, um, because everybody's shape looks different when they're on the mat. Like, you know, we need to forget about, um, doing this, the asanas correctly. Um, you know, Every, everybody's body moves differently. We're all at different, different places when she says that she's, you know, it's about moving into your body and feeling into your body about, you know, what the yoga practice feels like. And I just think that that is such a beautiful analogy for life, like trying something new, um, you know, when you're, when you wanted to make a change in your life or what you wouldn't, when you wanted to go for something, you know, we have. we have fears around what that's going to look like. Um, and sometimes that can get in the way where, you know, that, that important, that idea around intention over, overshape is like, you know what, I'm not going to have all the answers for this in the beginning. You know, I'm going to set my intentions about it and I'm going to move and I'm going to act, but I don't know how this is going to take shape.

Tatiana:

Yeah. Gorgeous. I'm going to put a link to in the show notes to her YouTube channel. This is yoga with Adriane.

Veronica:

Mm

Tatiana:

Yeah, no, she's beautiful. Yeah. I'll add a link to her YouTube channel in the, in the show notes, but I also wanted to just circle back to what you started with, which was it was hard to recommend a book because. Books often don't always fit you again when you, when you've moved on in your journey. And I think that's a really important topic to, to just highlight for people because this is true. Like I think we, we encounter these lessons or teachers where we need them, but as we continue to develop and grow, we outgrow some of those lessons because that process of evolution is continuous, right? And I think you've highlighted that so beautifully, but we just. Moved on to the next thing and I really wanted to,

Veronica:

Yeah, and I guess there can be a little bit of disappointment around that sometimes, um, you know, I have had, you know, I've met teachers, I've, I've, um, like, you know, found YouTube personalities and, like, writers where, you know, like at the time it was just, what they were saying was just revolutionary for me and spoke to my soul. And then sometimes there is something that doesn't fit, but I think that that's actually a really, really good thing. Um, it stops us from getting, um, trapped into this idea that one person has all of the answers, um, which is, you know, quite problematic. Like, I like the idea that I can take what fits, um, from certain people and. Leave the rest. Um, and I think there is a bit of safety in that as well. Like, you know, that I like to research broadly Consume a lot of content, but if it doesn't fit for me, like if not all of it fits, that's actually okay You know, I can just I can just leave the bits that don't fit Yeah.

Tatiana:

Yeah, 100%. And I think that it goes the other way as well. Like sometimes you encounter something that you're not yet ready for. And so you're going to be like, I can't, this doesn't resonate for me, but as you've done some more of that developing and growing, you can go back to that, to that and it all of a sudden connects. So I think that just beautifully highlights the fact that we need to be open and flexible to, you know, growth journey, right. And, and recognize that we do better when we know better. Yeah, which is what you're talking about. Like you sometimes resonate with something that isn't necessarily great in the big scheme of things, but there's still something, there's like a pearl of wisdom in everything I think we can, we can potentially find. Um, but then when you know better, you can look back and go, okay, well, not all of that was actually ideal. Um, but also as we grow, we become more ready to, to absorb, I guess, a higher level of insight or perspective. Um, Yeah, this whole process, right? It's what makes it infuriating, but also beautiful.

Veronica:

know, you're getting all these beautiful insights and then, you know, everything right? No, not at all. Yeah, but

Tatiana:

Exactly. I don't think we can learn everything in one

Veronica:

absolutely not. Um, so yeah, like the more, the more you pull at a particular thread, The more questions there are going to be, um, but like that is a beautiful part of being human, um, you know, sitting with the not knowing everything and, you know, that we, we learn, we grow, we absorb knowledge, but we also have to give up, um, the need for control over, like, having all of the answers and what the knowledge looks like. Yeah.

Tatiana:

Absolutely. So much easier said than done, right? But absolutely true. Oh, thank you so much, Veronica. I really enjoyed this conversation. I think you've highlighted some really important points for people. Um, and yeah, reinforced some things that I really Uh, helpful for people to keep in mind when they're going through this journey of, um, connecting with their spirituality or trying to integrate it into their lives or their work a little bit more. So I'm so grateful for you agreeing to come on and

Veronica:

Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. It's been lovely.

Tatiana:

yeah. Now, would you like to just maybe let our listeners know where they can connect with you if they

Veronica:

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I'm at a group private practice. Um, it's called Divernial Psychology. So it's a bit of a mouthful. D E V for Victor, ERN, for November, EUIL psychology. Um, I think the website's, dever psychology.com au. I think it's a very easy one, but it'll be in the notes anyway. Uh, yeah, so I'm just in, uh, like northern suburbs of Perth. It's a suburb called Clarkson. And yeah, people will be able to connect with me through that website.

Tatiana:

well, that's great. I'll add all of that information in the short notes. Um, so anyone who's interested and lives out that way, uh, and is looking, I think sometimes people are looking for a psychologist that will allow them to go to those places as well and explore their spirituality. In a way that feels safe to them, but we don't know where to start or they, they're too scared to bring it up. So for those that are listening, either as a consumer or as a psychologist who may have clients that are looking for that, um, you would be a

Veronica:

thank you very much, yeah, no, I appreciate that, mm,

Tatiana:

Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much again, Veronica. And thank you all everyone for listening. I hope you all have a lovely week and we'll speak

Veronica:

thanks, Tethya.

Tatiana:

Bye. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Integrated Wisdom. It is my sincere wish that today's episode may have intrigued and inspired you to reclaim your power and step into becoming more fully integrated spiritual beings. New episodes are published every second Wednesday and I hope you'll continue to join us as we dive deeper into what it means to live an integrated life. So if it feels aligned to you, I invite you to hit subscribe and share it with others who you feel may benefit too. You may also find me on Instagram at integrated underscore wisdom. Remember each moment is an opportunity to embrace your divine potential and create a world that is more frequently inspired. So for now, stay connected, stay inspired and keep shining your light into the world.