Integrated Wisdom
Integrated Wisdom podcast aims to bridge the gap between spirituality and science. By exploring the lessons of neuroscience, psychology, holistic healing modalities and spiritual wisdoms, and integrating these insights, we seek to uncover the keys to deepening our connection with ourselves and others, whilst paving the way for a more deeply connected and inspired world along the way.
Integrated Wisdom
Soulful Chats with Clinical Psychologist Annelil Desille
Welcome to the first 'Soulful Chats' of 2025, where we dive deep into the fascinating intersection of psychology, spirituality, and neurodiversity. Today's guest is Clinical Psychologist Annelil Desille, who opens up about her powerful journey of weaving spiritual practices into both her personal life and professional practice.
As a neurodivergent practitioner herself, Annelil offers unique insights into how spiritual integration has not only transformed her own life but has become a valuable tool in supporting and understanding the neurodivergent community. Whether you're a mental health professional, someone exploring their own spiritual path, or interested in neurodiversity, this conversation illuminates the profound connection between psychological well-being and spiritual growth.
You can find out more about Anneli's incredible work here:
Website for psychology: www.neurokinnection.com.au
Links to audio reassurances and inner child decks: https://www.neurokinnection.com.au/info-resources
Website for retreats, reiki and other courses: https://www.nk-intimacy-alchemy.com.au
Instagram: www.instagram.com/neurokinnection
Books Recommendations:
The Artists Way - https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/0143129252?ref_=mr_direct_us_au_au&showmri
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Intro and Outro music: Inspiring Morning by Playsound
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
Welcome back and happy. 2025. I'm so excited to be returning to the podcast after what has been an extended break. 2024 turned out to be a very challenging year on a personal level for me. And I needed that extra time to recovering reset. So thank you for your patience and for sticking with me. But now I'm ready to resume these very important conversations. Which I believe I needed now more than ever. I'm so excited for all the topics that we'll be covering this year. And my plans for 2025 revolve around. Really bringing the spiritual perspective to some of the more common challenges that we all face as we navigate the human experience. There was some incredible things coming out. So be sure to keep tuning in. And there's no better way to kick things off than we've one of our very popular soulful chats. So enjoy. Welcome to the Integrated Wisdom Podcast. I am your host, Tatyana Da Silva. Join me as we discuss what it means to live an integrated life and explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater meaning, peace, and connection by integrating the wisdom of spirituality, psychology, Neuroscience, Epigenetics and Energy Psychology are hoped to empower you to create deeper and more loving connections with yourself and others, whilst also paving the way for humanity at large to be reimagined and inspired to become the very best version of itself. hello and welcome to the Integrated Wisdom Podcast. I'm so excited to have you all join me yet again for this year as we get started with our very first installment of Soulful Chats, one of our very popular segments that we do monthly. This month, I'm so excited to kick things off with a colleague and alumni of mine, Annelil Desille. She is an AuDHDer intimacy and relationship clinical psychologist using their personal experiences along with clinical experience in the field to work with neurodivergent individuals. Her special interests include neurodivergence, mind body connection, sexual health, dating and intimacy, attachment, and spirituality. She holds her Certificate 3 and 4 in Fitness, a Masters of Clinical Psychology, Postgraduate Diploma of Psychology, a Bachelors of Psychological Science and a Reiki Level 2 Certification. She utilises her array of knowledge and passion for all things sex, relationships and intimacies related to support Neurokin with their research. Their ability to deepen and strengthen connections together. Leo has developed and created incredible resources as well as events, retreats, and courses that are tailored specifically to the AuDHD community. These events and resources have largely been complimented by the new King community for their level of inclusivity, adaptive ability. and resourcefulness. Welcome, Lil. It's so exciting to have you join us today. I'm very excited to be here. So thank you
Anelil:for inviting me.
Tatiana:Oh, yeah. And as your bio, highlights, you obviously have an interest in spirituality, which was one of the things that kind of connected us. So I was very excited to have you come on the podcast to talk about your own journey with spirituality on a personal level, but as well as in your work. And I'm really, I feel that you'll have a lot of beautiful insights to share with our listeners, particularly from the neurodivergent experience with spirituality. So thank you so much for agreeing to this.
Anelil:Oh, of course. And apologies in advance. And I'll say that I'm I may ramble your ear off if I go on a loop, so you might need to lasso me in if I do end up going off track at any point.
Tatiana:We'll go with the flow. I love this. All right. So why don't we start with What first sparked your interest in spirituality? Like a little bit about your journey.
Anelil:Yeah.
Tatiana:Okay. So,
Anelil:Well, funnily enough, I'll go preconception and then go into the phase where I was actually integrated with it. But family lineage goes back in my maternal side, the Kakar side where we like history wise were ostracized and made to go through separate ends of the church. And we were considered to be like evil. And there's actually like a historical museum in France about our whole family. It's wild. So clearly we're powerful little magical beings. But, yeah, mum saw a psychic when she was pregnant who said I would be an indigo child, and later down the track my mum had spoken and communicated that with me and I was always quite drawn to that. My grandmother. On my mom's side has always been very spiritual. So, everything from reflexology to Reiki to energy healing has been in my family anyway in a more subtle and nuanced I guess, manner. I've always loved crystals, but I was really drawn into my spiritual journey, probably a little bit prior to COVID. I just moved to Melbourne from Sydney. Oh, it was 2020 was the most chaotic year for my life and in one of the best ways I think possible. But my partner was doing a lot of self work. My partner at the time I'm no longer with and I decided to journey inward. And a lot of that started by doing YouTube videos, like with yoga with Adrian and connecting in with a little bit more of my body. And I remember a really pivotal experience having met someone during the COVID time who's one of my close friends now, and he helped me do this meditation that somehow actually allowed me to connect with my inner child for the first time ever. And it was such a profound and intensified moment that it just sent me down this huge rabbit hole of. What on earth is happening? Like I want to explore this deeper. So I actually did a lot of in a child work, but then like shadow work was my calling and much more of my preference. I love all things, dark, nitty gritty, raw, vulnerable. So actually I've loved shadow work a lot more considerably. And since that time point, embedding different practices, learning, more about tarot, angel cards learning about goddesses and deities and learning more about Reiki, the way that energy works and connection with humans is always like one of my favorite things and understanding humans. So when I say humans, that's partially because I feel alien for one, but for two, just as a more broad terminology of people generally. But yes, I think spirituality is always being quiet. embedded in some ways more discreet than others, but I think it's definitely become more prominent since that 2019, 2020 period.
Tatiana:Yeah. Fantastic. And it sounds like you actually really did a deep dive and explored lots of different things at the same time. Which is phenomenal because I think for a lot of people, particularly having, because by then, obviously you were a psychologist, I imagine.
Anelil:Yes, that's correct.
Tatiana:And so it's my experience and with some of the people that I've been speaking to on the podcast that transition from psychologist and being a scientist practitioner and then allowing yourself to own your spiritual elements inside can be like really drawn out. Like to be able to feel like you can embrace all of those parts of yourself and not feel like there's a conflict. But you just drove headfirst.
Anelil:Yeah, apparently I do things a complete other way around, but I did find that with as I am a psychologist too, it felt like there were more limitations actually placed on me. So it felt that a lot of my authenticity had been. hindered or halted until I was able to find my own groove to find the balance and to outsource different spaces or people yourself included in that, that create safety of going, well, how can we balance both science and spirituality? Because ultimately, psychology is just colonialist white people stealing from like culturally collectivist, like communities, which have spirituality embedded throughout them. So, ultimately I think that. The progression was I'm open and then, Oh no, there are so many rules to, Oh, I can actually find a roadmap that works for me.
Tatiana:And so cause obviously you, you explored lots of different things in that even from the very early piece, what was the first concept, spiritual concept that you felt really allowed you to feel confident in exploring more deeply? Was it the yoga or was it something else?
Anelil:Definitely not. Cause movement, I've always hated movement is actually something that is really hard for me to enter into nowadays. It's a lot easier, but it is still something I struggle with. I think for me, it was this sense of just knowing things and that sounds arrogant on a surface level, but. Whether it was a download or whether it was just having access to information that didn't necessarily feel like mine, but, instinct or deep unknowing that there was something more to life, that there was something grander, greater than myself. And having, communication and really loving, deep introspective moments, both with myself, but with other people. I think that's something that has probably pieced together spirituality at its core for me, and that came the most naturally and has been the most prominent concept that's maintained.
Tatiana:Yeah, beautiful. And so I guess from your experience, what benefits have you personally found with incorporating spirituality into your life more fully? And I'm really keen to even hear from that neurodivergent perspective, if you feel that has had a unique way of connecting with you or enhancing some of your, I guess, the way that you feel you navigate the world? Yeah.
Anelil:So I think the biggest thing for me benefit wise I think it's really been about stepping into authenticity. There's a lot of both social scripts, but neuro normative scripts that we're always told that we have to adhere to and be and exist. And being neurodivergent, you don't know these scripts. And then we get in trouble for not adhering to the scripts that don't come in. naturally to us. And so I think spirituality has been really beneficial because it's been quite liberating in looking at the bits that are maybe not as palatable to society within myself. Like I'm a very opinionated person, I'm very headstrong and stubborn and I'm very resistant to people making demands of me that I don't feel are embedded with, the Either authenticity or congruent with my values, and that can be challenging for a lot of people on the receiving end. And that's fine. Each their own. Those are parts of me that I love wholeheartedly. But I think that being you're a divergent. Maybe spirituality comes easier because we're quite strong with pattern recognition. We can clock things quite easily or we can notice things that might be a bit more bizarre or eccentric externally and having the psych lens on top of that obviously can amplify that I think. But I think the biggest thing, yeah, pattern recognition also And this is where it can be different for different neurodivergence, but as an autistic ADHD specifically, there's a level of cognitive adaptability I have because of the ADHD parts, where It allows me to move swiftly through different areas of spirituality and take what I like and leave the rest, take what resonates and then just, yeah, I can separate. But then there are also rules in the autistic part of my brain that are like, well, I still need to follow science, there's still logic, there are some things that can't be proven and so then I, there's a little bit of a battle there, but simultaneously, It's helped with processing uncertainty, spirituality, because uncertainty is really triggering for a lot of autistics who don't like knowing what won't happen, or we need to know, we need to have a plan, we need to have structure. So, a lot of my spiritual work has been about, surrender letting go releasing what isn't meant to me, and that's a really difficult thing because, I like to hold on for dear life and don't let go. And so spirituality, I think a benefit of that and with neurodivergence has allowed me to access a space and a mentality that I don't think traditional therapy could have actually allowed me to get into.
Tatiana:Can you highlight an example of that? Sorry to interrupt you, but if you don't mind expanding on that point, cause I think that's such a beautiful and unique point that you've just made.
Anelil:No, absolutely. So for me, for example, with the uncertainty in particular, so you've got methodologies like acceptance and commitment therapy right? Like you, you can do your radical acceptance. You can have your hands out. You can be observer in reality. And they do try to teach you like well, practicing the method of. It is what it is. I can't do that on a logical level because emotions are what's prominent and what's present and what spirituality I feel covers is more about intuiting to the feeling rather than the thought and taking up as much space as thought. I feel like with psychology in particular because it's trying so very hard to be a science, which it is, but because we want to be considered hard science, right? We try to prove a point by going, it has to be evidence based. It has to be by the book. It has to be everything that needs to be rooted. He needs to have a rationale where spirituality allows for this fluidity of experiential learning of this might not work for me, but how about I give this a go or how about I do this? And Even for example, as I'm here to budget person, we love. Especially autistic rituals. What do I do? A full moon, a new moon ritual. And I can embed that. And part of that means letting go the things that aren't serving me in the current cycle, or what do I want to put my energy into over the next little while? So I find that the neurodivergence helps me with the practicality of working through spirituality to the point where I'm still grounded. But it also offers different insights and perspectives that, I'm more healing in ways that allow me to really connect into feeling, connect to land, connect to country, to connect to Others and not just others in human form, but animals too especially like I've got two black hats because I'm a witch, obviously, but yeah, and so I've completely forgotten what your question was, but I hope I answered some of it.
Tatiana:Oh, you answered it so perfectly because I think it really speaks to why. Integrating these two domains, right, the psychological and the spiritual is so important. It expands our ability for healing, for self empowerment, for self knowledge. Oh, it was just, oh, beautiful answer.
Anelil:And
Tatiana:so I guess that leads so nicely into how you feel it has enhanced your work specifically. So on that professional psychological practice level. What would you say have been some of the benefits of, or the gains that you've made from embodying this more fully?
Anelil:I think the biggest thing is the connection piece and observing. More than what you just see in the room. But really knowing and feeling into what's in the room with you. It's helped me to be more insightful when my stuff is in the room. So beautiful mirrors all around us. And obviously with some clients, they mirror out a lot more. And I think with spirituality work, it's allowed me to access. self reflective capacity, you go, Oh, so it's coming up. Okay. Put that to the side. Let's address that later. Stay in tune, staying more present with my client and just being able to acknowledge, okay, that's a thing I can address that later, as opposed to, the risk of transference or counter transference occurring and not knowing what's happening in processing. It's just Oh, no, that's a flag. Cool. I'll pin it for later. I think it's a lot more easier for me to define. when that's occurring and to place it to the side without it impacting the session or my clients feeling into the room. And this is maybe partially also the autistic element where I don't just listen to what people speak. I look. at their bodies because their bodies tell more truth than their voices will. It's it's so true. And I'm just like, okay. And I work with autistic ADHD is too, but many of them are masters and people who have had to learn the social scripts that I mentioned a bit earlier. So, What's been really valuable is I will hear them talk and I don't necessarily look at them while it's being done But I'm looking what is your body doing? What's the tone of your voice doing? How is it inflecting? How is this different and pattern recognition queuing and then being able to go incongruences here and then I can call it out in a session and I think it's given me confidence especially with spirituality integration to go I'm just feeling something's off. I'm not clocking what it is, and that's the autistic in me that's what have I missed? But there's something that's there. And it allows my clients an opportunity to be honest, for one or vulnerable if they feel comfortable to do so. Or it gives me an opportunity to go, ah, that's a spot that they might struggle with. How can I now create a safety net around them to invite them into this space of discussion? Or when's the right time to challenge versus not? And I think with spirituality, it's allowed me to be more, yeah, connected, present with my clients, but seeing what's mine, what baggage can be left behind, what's theirs, what's projection, and much more than just this more. Scientific, okay, that would be projection, because you just said this, it's less that and more of a Okay, take a beat. I wonder what you're trying to get at when you're doing this. I'm curious. I'm way more curious to search for answers rather than having this point of needing to be certain and this authority in the space. It's no, like we're collaborating. We're being co creators of your story. of your therapeutic work, and you know yourself better than I do, so I'm not wanting to lead, but I'm curious as to why you've just done this, if that makes sense.
Tatiana:How fabulous. Do you mind talking to, I guess, how your clients then respond to you approaching things in that in that way?
Anelil:All of my clients who meet me know I am a very direct communicator. So, I get a very specific set of clients as well. I think you either love me or you hate me. I'm a very, I mean, a very palatable or very oppositional. Not my person. Literally. I can't be anyone but myself. Blessing and a curse. But I attract a lot of similarly neurotyped clients. So PDA ers, gifted individuals, autistic ADHD ers too. Some of them spiritual, some of them not. So I do have to make a balance in the way that I do approach different concepts, of course, and that's just therapeutic work, right? We tailor to the person. But I do find that I'm received, I have clients that will say before as a preface, I'll be like, Now I know you're going to be like angry, but so I know your voice is running through my head when I did this, still did the thing, don't judge me. And then they then proceed to tell me what they did. And I'm like laughing in session because I'm like. You obviously know that I'm not going to judge you, but I also will like simultaneously know that I will still hold unconditional positive regard for you and simultaneously still hold you accountable. And so that is one of the best feelings for me because it's so validating. Cause I very much a very fair believer. Authenticity is my strongest, one of my strongest values. And also my clients tell me I'm, because I have such a flat face when I'm just listening and receiving, when I've received interesting information, I'm very expressively obvious and they're like, Oh, you didn't have to do that face. I'm at home. I mean, way too obvious. No, but I think my clients receive me quite well. They know what to expect and I think my consistency maybe helps support that.
Tatiana:Oh, 100 percent and I think you're really modeling for them, right? What it means to be authentic in the world and the fact that they can then come to you even though like they're confessing.
Anelil:Literally, I'm like. They're still being authentic though. Look. Glad you told me. Was that the right decision though? And they're like, no, but, and I'm like, it's okay. You're human, but like maybe what we could have done. Ideas. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. No judgment. It's, you are human. We're gonna, we're gonna fuck up, we're gonna make mistakes. We're gonna do all of these things because at the end of the day, we are human and we have our own biases and our own choices, and our own insecurities and our own projections. Yeah. It's just about keeping ourselves accountable or acknowledging when it is. Without going down the full Shane spiral, and then going, okay. How do I learn and get better from this? How do I make sure that I create safety next time? Or how do I hold myself next time in those moments?
Tatiana:Yeah, absolutely. And then, from that spiritual lens, that's also why we're here, right? Like we're here to learn and to grow. So yeah, it's gorgeous. That's why, yeah, you can't separate the two things. We'll still, we'll get everybody else to see it our way eventually, but.
Anelil:Oh, I think the research is already heading that way. And I'm actually seeing a huge collective shift with quite a lot of psychologists in the community, which I'm adoring at the moment. Especially, with learning anti colonialist, anti capitalist, anti patriarchal kind of paradigms, even the anti medical model and pathologizing and going, we have taken from collectivist cultures by trying to promote an individualistic practice. Forgetting that community is one of the things, like relational healing only happens in relation with and to. And there are so many beautiful things, whether you want to label it spiritual or not, like eco therapy, nature therapy That's what we used to do. That is what our ancestors did. They went out into nature. They grounded themselves by going barefoot, connecting with the land. And especially with first nations, like indigenous Australians aboriginals in particular, right? They, the state of country is a reflection of our world, of our mental capacity and our connections with others. I've done so many videos. would recommend highly WeAli. They are an Aboriginal community group that do PDs in cultural and spiritual practice and trauma healing with the Indigenous community. So good. So I highly recommend just as a side note. And all of the exercises, shockingly so similar to what we do with psych. And it's just this beautiful confirmation of, yeah. Like you said, you can't not have the two. And whether you want to label it spirituality or not, that's fine. You don't need to be someone who falls into the woo category. You can be someone that just goes, I like movement. I like reflecting on my thoughts. I like taking moments of pause for visualization, whatever you want to call it, it is still a practice of self connection to others. And that in itself is out of the self healing and growth journey. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think they're deeply embedded and enmeshed concepts, but, call it what you will. Today potato.
Tatiana:100%. And I agree with you. I just see a very clear shift happening and it's, it started as a trickle and now it's building momentum and it's going to become a tsunami wave in our lifetime. But I mean. But we started earlier talking about how for a lot of us psychs, bridging this gap can be very scary, particularly in Australia. I don't think it's an issue that happens so much overseas, but in Australia, our board is very strict about the sorts of things that we can and can't do or talk about. So for you, from that side, like from the perspective of being a psychologist, where their fears around embodying your spiritual. I guess that's spirituality or holding those two things simultaneously. And how did you override that fear? Cause it sounds like now you're very open about it. Like you can talk about it quite. Quite openly, but was there ever a point where you didn't feel like you could, like you didn't, I know that for me, I was in the closet for a long time until I felt like, you know what I can't not do this because it's killing me to be, to suppress this very core part of who I am.
Anelil:Especially if it's your higher calling, right? To provide that information, especially. There have been elements where that's been present. I think the biggest moment was actually during my master's. Where I felt very stifled. I was very emotionally connected to a client. And not even in a spiritual sense, but I, they were my first client through the master's course. So I was very protective in that way. And obviously I wanted to do right by them. And they had a really intensified neurotype that needed way more support than I actually had in my scope. And I was quite distressed to the point that I brought it to group supervision a few times. And I remember my supervisors telling me that I was too emotional about it, and the amount of shame that created, and then continually throughout the course, like when I was questioning things or asking about things with curiosity they, once again, shamed that and made me feel incorrect for, needing to understand rationale behind things. I was trying to understand why XYZ was supposed to be helpful. And I wasn't given clarity other than the concept of stop asking questions. You just follow the rules. And as a PDA, um, I kept my head down. Cause my mom's actually a psychologist. So. And she's not in your masters. They're going to flag, they're going to flag you, put your head down, get it done. And I felt defeated. Honestly, my master's course was horrific and it was the lead into a severe three year burnout. And that was really stifling, and I didn't even want to be a psychologist at that point. And this is while I was starting like spiritual journey stuff, so for context, that was all at the same time, and it was like, oh, but I'm exploring and curious, and I'm wanting to understand this, and everything that I'm being told I'm doing is wrong and I think that's a very prominent neurodivergent trauma as well, we hear a lot of negative messaging around the way that we do ask, say things, so yeah. There was a lot of the background narrative there playing, and it wasn't until I realized I could be flexible and this is where I guess the PDA loophole I can always find a loophole. It was a, okay, well I don't necessarily I want to ask my clients cause I need to ask them what are their cultural spiritual beliefs? Cause I've got a lot of clients of different faiths and cultures and spiritual propensities. So I actually asked that on my intake because I'm like, this actually gives me a gauge of, Firstly, what I need to learn about your culture to make sure I'm being culturally sensitive. But also so that I can understand what lens you're going to come from. And I've got quite a few Filipino in particular clients who are very embedded with their spiritual faith. And so for those clients I explore a little bit more with them because that would be culturally insensitive not to, and one of the things especially that we do learn inside is that you can adapt in those circumstances. So I use the loopholes around. cultural sensitivity and being open as a means of allowing a little bit of that access. And then finally, I think the last step there for me to get out of that shame was to go into spaces where I was reading and digesting information that actually highlighted the westernized and post industrialized societies were really just taking from other cultures and communities. And I think that anti colonialist mindset and unlearning a lot of that Knowing actually, when we're thinking about working with clients, we can't think of it in this individualistic way. And so I'm actually not adhering to APRA. And then I guess the final PDA step was I just made an additional business so that I could do my ranking. Yes. Like I was like, I still want to do my spiritual stuff, so I'm just going to put it as a complete separate thing. So APRA. Yeah. You have, they are completely separate. Yeah. And I get to engage with the things that I find powerful here. And then in the other powerful things here, I'm adhering to my ethical guidelines. I'm ensuring I'm practicing as an ethical psychologist and within my means of scope, and I don't merge the two. And that's the balance that, you know, with respect to what, My careers are and what we have to adhere to. But I felt that once I was able to do that, it made it so much easier. I'm like, okay, so if you want services here. But if you want these services here, and then really just inquiring with clients and that initial intake. How do you feel about these things, the concepts, because like concepts like journaling, affirmation, like these are not, yoga, movement, like focusing on your sleep, rituals. These are all actually evidence based practice.
Tatiana:Absolutely. Yeah.
Anelil:So it's really about, I think, the framing of it with your words and ensuring that it's the best modality or best intervention or best practice to teach and apply with your clients. So I think that's where. I was able to really soften and lean into that authentic piece of, no, I'm actually doing the right thing. We just have very firm guidelines, but they forget that a lot of our practices are still deeply embedded. From, I guess, less westernized and more collectivist cultures.
Tatiana:Yes. And we're working with individuals, right? That are going to have unique ways of interacting with what we're presenting. So we need to adapt to them too. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's really, yeah, so powerful what you've said. And I guess, just before we move on, I just wanted to say I'm so sorry that was your experience. And It's wonderful that you were able to push through I guess it would have been very hard and I can imagine that there might have been times when you feel like I just want to give this up. And I'm so, so glad that you didn't because the profession and the people out there need practitioners like you that have these other perspectives and these other insights. To really help people heal.
Anelil:Thank you for saying that. No, I really appreciate it. And I'll thank Paul, my old psychologist, who said to me, you don't actually have to be a psychologist. You can just finish your degree and you can just leave it at that. And that was enough for me to actually hold onto of going, oh, there are other options that I could take. I don't just have to be so one track minded. But no, thank you for saying that. And look, it ultimately helped me. While it stifled parts of me at that time, the uprising moment was, no that's not me. I had to keep my head down in tertiary education but I earned my practice. I'm being ethical. I see a supervisor more regularly than I actually need to. I supervisions. I'm still doing my CPD. I'm doing all the things I need to. Yeah and in a way that's resonant with who I am and the clients that I see. So, I'm glad I kept going too. But I think that we all have to go through that crappy little journey. I think that's just also the medical model. That's very true.
Tatiana:Yeah. That is very true. And it's so ironic, isn't it? That it's actually one of the things that makes me really mad that we're in this profession where we want to be able to call ourselves scientists. Yeah. And what is science, if not curious inquiry and adapting to the facts as they come up all the time, right? There is no one hard, solid truth. It's a moving target constantly.
Anelil:Yeah.
Tatiana:And so to have these so called professors telling us that is wrong, that to be curious is wrong, to be scientifically minded is wrong, is just the biggest irony ever. But also what gets under my skin. I wholeheartedly agree. No,
Anelil:I'm with you. I'm with you. I, yep. Honestly, I, even just the fact that unpaid placements is still a thing, but that's a whole other kind of thing. That's a
Tatiana:whole other episode. Oh Lord. Ha. So from your perspective, then what do you see to be the value of psychologists and other therapists more broadly, in particular, embracing their spiritual selves and being more curious, or at least being more curious about their spirituality?
Anelil:It just leads to open mindedness more. More openness to other people's perspectives more considerations for additional perspectives that your clients might not be thinking of. More eagerness to learn. So expansion of your knowledge and I think it really deepens connections with others when you're willing to go down to the roots and go, okay, well, The tree looks like this, but let's look at the soil. Let's look at the roots. Let's look at the weather around you. Let's actually look at it for the holistic part with which you are. Cause ultimately we're whole beings. We're not just our thoughts. We're a conglomerate whole of so many different things. And. I think that psychologists more broadly when they can tap into a space of that exploration, allowing not only their own individual self growth, but they're also encouraging modeling that to their clients. But there's so much learning, like we're forever learning, like you just said, like, there is always room for discovering more. And I think that when it comes to spirituality, there's so many areas, so much within it that you can just pick and choose what you really want to try. And if it really does appeal, then awesome. If it doesn't. But I think there's a lot of beauty in having. a lot of options. And I mean, we've got such finite time. Like everyone's Oh, life is short, but life is like the longest thing that we exist with. So objectively, right. So let's utilize and maximize upon that time. You've got so much time. I say we're all going to die, but more or less seriously than that there is enough time for you to learn and try things and at your own pace.
Tatiana:Yeah, no, beautiful, beautifully said. So one final reflection then is if you had to pick one transformative aspect for embracing spirituality more fully, both on that personal and professional level, what aspect would that be for you? And maybe it's what you've just said, but, I
Anelil:don't work through and through your ugly parts. Like I look at the shame, look at the anger, look at the jealousy, look at I feel like in a child's life is very beautiful and healing in its lightness and its ability to take yourself less seriously and to give yourself permission to step into joy. But I think that a lot of people sit into their avoidance of themselves. Oops. And I'm, not a human that's not been in that space myself and sometimes still am like we're human after all. But I think really doing shadow work is both confronting, but it's so healing because it allows you to both forgive other people for what you've seen, what it's brought out in you. We're all just mirroring and reflecting and bouncing at the end of the day. So I think that was a really integral part of my transformative journey for myself was to be able to do that. And that allowed me to step into a lot more self compassion.
Tatiana:Yeah. Fabulous. Yeah. How beautiful. And I have a tradition. in this podcast where I'll always ask my guests to recommend a book that they found transformative, a spiritual book to begin that you could recommend other people may want to use as a beginning step in their journey for exploring these topics more fully. I don't know if you want to recommend something around that shadow work piece or something else. Yeah, it can be more than one.
Anelil:Is it? where the wild women run or women who run with wolves. But yeah, this is one that I'd recommend for my assigned female at birth individuals. I don't think I'm going to recommend anything other than that, because that, that one was just more about embracing like your wild side and allowing, and that's also helpful for stepping away from social scripts and things that we've been indoctrinated into socially. So it was like a conglomerate mix of that. But if you want to tap into that space, honestly, Microdose it on YouTube videos or on TikToks or Instagram find what resonates. For me, I really I love Sylvia Plath. She's not spiritual by any means, but her poetry, her writings were so resonant with me and her experiences. So, actually, I lie. The artist's way.
Tatiana:The artist's way.
Anelil:Okay. And that's a practical kind of side book. And it's very great. Anything tapping into sensuality, creativity I think is powerful and magnetic. It's not woo enough to scare you off if you need to step into the space. Gently. Yeah, exactly. Teeter on the loom.
Tatiana:Fabulous. I'll put a link to both those books in the show notes for those that are curious to explore that. But I really just want to thank you so much, Lil, for coming on. I had a feeling that this conversation was going to be super powerful and it has been beyond my wildest dreams. So thank you so much for being so awesome. open and vulnerable and sharing so insightfully. Thanks for having
Anelil:me.
Tatiana:I guess if you want to share a little bit about where people can find you, some of the beautiful work that you do on you, you do so much, like you've run some incredible retreats. I talk a little bit about your offerings and where people can find you.
Anelil:Ah, okay. So have an Instagram and a Tik TOK under neuro connections. So that's N E U R O. A I N E C T I
Tatiana:O
Anelil:N.
Tatiana:And I'll put all the links in the show notes.
Anelil:Perfect. So that's like for autistic ADHD relationship and self work. I mean, I've got an upcoming course, but it won't be, it'll probably be done by the time this is out, but I started, it's called bare essentials and it's up this week. But I'm going to run it again later in the year, which is actually about tapping into sensuality and a little bit of spirituality. Autistic ADHD, sign for amount of birth and gender diverse people. Fantastic. And yeah, couples retreats for neurodivergence, which embeds spirituality to and connection to others, but partner self, all of those elements too, because they're really integral and lots of resources constantly making things where I can. So neurodivergent in a child affirmation deck cards I've got, and some audio reassurances. So words that neurodivergence probably didn't hear from family members, but probably needed to when they were younger. So it's a nice, like in a child healing work. And I made those from. my own inner child needs when I was doing some of that spiritual work too.
Tatiana:How gorgeous. Yeah. I'll put a link to all of these things in the show notes so people can find you. And yeah, once again, thank you so, so much for coming and sharing your wisdom with us.
Anelil:Thank you again for having me. It's been delightful and I'm very
Tatiana:excited. And thank you all for listening. I hope you all have a lovely week and we will speak next time.
Anelil:Yeah. Thanks. Bye.
Tatiana:Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Integrated Wisdom. It is my sincere wish that today's episode may have intrigued and inspired you to reclaim your power and step into becoming more fully integrated spiritual beings. New episodes are published every second Wednesday and I hope you'll continue to join us as we dive deeper into what it means to live an integrated life. So if it feels aligned to you, I invite you to hit subscribe and share it with others who you feel may benefit too. You may also find me on Instagram at integrated underscore wisdom. Remember each moment is an opportunity to embrace your divine potential and create a world that is more frequently inspired. So for now, stay connected, stay inspired and keep shining your light into the world.